Matrix: Reloaded **possible SPOILERS**

Just so you know, eris, I'm now touting your Matrix theory off to everyone I know and pretending I came up with it.
That's awesome.

I'm not sure, but I think I'm flattered.

Oh, and about Link's wife. Annoying little wench. Was talking with Dan about her, and have I mentioned I love Dan? Anyway, he pointed out that the only male character that had her attributes was the traitor from the first movie. His point was that both were self-serving, greedy, and willing to sacrifice the whole for their own comfort.

The difference is, *he* wasn't presented in any sort of positive light (although I sort of liked the little bastard anyway). Link's wife, on the other hand, was presented in such a way that she was supposed to appear reasonable. And I can't quite figure out why we're supposed to see her position as acceptable, and not the traitor (I honestly don't remember his name.)

But then, look at all the other females in the movie.

Trinity: Not only does she just generally rock, but she pulls off more shit than anyone else. AND because she's so cool, Neo is willing to sacrifice godhood for her. And, knowing that she's gonna die, she goes into the Matrix at the end. Why? Because she has too. And it's really that simple with Trinity. She does it because she has to.

Oracle: OK, so she's part of the Matrix, and therefore suspect, but she's also doing what she sees as her responsiblity... balancing the needs of the humans with the needs of the machines, to keep both safe. Why? Because she's the one that has seen how to best combine the needs of the two (best from the point of view of the machines anyway).

Naiobi: Goes against her husband's will in order to do what needs to be done. Not to defy him, just to accomplish a mission that no one else is going to do.

Councilwoman: Is obviously a major force in Zion, and as such is respected and followed.

Persephone: I'm not quite sure... was Persephone human or a program? Was she playing the part of the jilted lover in order to convince the zionists that they were struggling to get the key (so that they wouldn't suspect that it was being made "too easy" for them)? Or was she manipulted by her husband who was definately a program, into doing the same thing? I'm not sure.

Perhaps, with all these ultracool butt-kicking chicks in the movie, they simply felt that too many people would be turned off, so they needed to throw in a sop. Or perhaps, Link's wife was meant to be repellant in the light of the other women, as a way of satirizing that presentation of women, that we see in so many other movies. I have no idea.

ok I think I missed something, so help me out here. in reloaded they say Tank and Dozer are dead....I just watched the first one, Dozer does in fact die....Tank gets way messed up but is still alive at the end.....WTF? I missed something I think.....

Eris, you're thinking of Cypher. i love that guy, he's good at playing a jerk. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ski, Tank was supposed to be in the sequels. Read Here for more on that. Yay, hollywood lawsuits.

oh, and going back to eris, i really like your theories on this. i still have to see it again ... bah. i'll get there eventually.

oh, and Link's wife annoyed the hell out of me, too. i don't care if it's the husband doing it to the wife or the wife doing it to the husband, i hate it. "if you love me, you'll stay." bullshit. i'm sorry, but i wouldn't stop my dream or my duty because my partner didn't like it. and considering it's a well-known fact that zion needs all the help it can get to stay alive against the machines, what with the war coming and all, she should be proud of him. i mean it's ok for her to be concerned about his safety, but to go so far as to say "don't go" ... BAH. plus she probably knew going into the marriage what it could entail. deal with the consequences, baby.

it's funny, i was thinking about how their names are all from myth and stuff, but i never got around to looking it all up. your ideas make sense though. the theories my friends had come up with were more about the architect creating a controlled rebellion by allowing the zionists to exist. he can keep an eye on them there, and watch that they don't get too out of hand. let them think that they are free and all. neo himself says near the end to morpheus, "the prophecy is a lie. The One was never meant to end anything. It was all another system of control." everything was set up from the start, it's all under control - especially about the part of them being "free." something like that, anyway.

also, all the other Ones had chosen to save zion - the door to the right. which is what the architect wanted and expected. zion is saved, they go back to living as before, and the matrix continues on with the human race intact.

Neo was different - he was more human than the rest, and he went for the other door, to save trinity, resulting in the end of all mankind. at first that pissed me off, i was like, "what?! you're risking zion for a woman? oh GOD, it's like another chick flick!!" but then when i got talking with my friends about it, i think that was the point - all the others had thought like i did - it's better to sacrifice one (in this case, trinity) to save the whole. the architect even showed neo pictures of people across the world, almost as a guilt trip, as if to say "be a hero - save the world." but Neo still retains a lot of his humanity, which had been mentioned by other characters several times. agent smith snerked several times about him being "only human." also, by choosing this path, the matrix is jeopardized - if the machines manage to destroy all the pods/fields of humans, there is no matrix, and the architect is left with nothing. he says at one point, "there are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." i'm almost wondering if that was a bluff, hoping Neo would "listen to reason" and go for the salvation of Zion, thus underestimating Neo's feelings for Trinity, as well as his strength. zion was going to be destroyed either way, so the architect says. i think the other Ones took what the architect said as their path, and went with it. being the One meant that much to them. as i said before - Neo is different. he's not going to let Zion go down without a fight, just as he's not going to let Trinity die if he feels he can save her. he's been questioning his "path" at every step, and not just taking what's been said and going with it. just like in the first movie when he was told he'd have to choose between his life and morpheus's life - he basically said "fuck that" and busted ass to save morpheus. and he succeeded.

another friend of mine was saying that if you listen to the oracle, and then you listen to the architect, they're basically talking about the same thing - phantom programs. the ones that hack other programs when facing deletion. only from two different perspectives. it's like how they explained vampires and werewolves and ghosts - programs that used to exist, but were written over with other programs; yet every now and then, they appear, for a brief period, though they're not supposed to. not everyone sees them. obviously the oracle and the architect are two of these rogues, only they've managed to keep their power (or so we're led to believe, anyway). few people ever see them, they only show up on occasion, and their existence can't really be proven. she says that they usually go into exile when facing deletion - probably what she and the architect did. i think she's an entity of the architect, only a softer version, so the One will listen to her guidance as she leads them inevitably to the architect where they must make their choices. i haven't really gotten much beyond that, myself, cuz i'm still working on it. other than Agent Smith is one of these programs as well - at least i think so. he used to be a real program, along with the other agents - a program run by the architect to control the masses and prevent too many from becoming and remaining "free" outside of the matrix. again, this goes back to the controlled resistance. oh, and he hacked into Zion, remember, and he's inside that guy, the only one who survived that thing near the end - how did he hack the "free world"? maybe this is also hinting that it's a matrix within a matrix.

speaking of which, i'm somewhat inclined to believe that as well, however that would be a really really lame conclusion. although i would find it amusing if the level above the super-matrix was just some guy sitting at his computer. in a way, this sorta reminds me of Reboot, where the characters were free within the computer, but when a program was installed, they had to deal with it. sorta. i haven't figured out any other reasons for neo being able to stop the machines. unless the powers they have in the matrix are also possible to use while outside it, but that wouldn't really make sense. why wouldn't anyone have tried it before? maybe because they think they can only use all their powers to manipulate while in the matrix, but that they're confined while outside. they're free, but their minds aren't quite as free as they think? i dunno yet. i need to see it again.

oh, and this is the sixth version of the matrix.
The Anti-Trust has a bunch of matrix stuff on it, including the conversation with the architect. that's where he says this is the 6th version.

i think i've babbled enough. that was a lot longer than i intended it to be.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 06, 2003 04:45 AM: Message edited by: Jelymo ]</font>

Why after reading all that do I keep thinking about the end of "Men in Black" were the two aliens are playing Jaxs with the universe?


And thanks for the Tank info Jely, it makes sence now.

that's funny, cuz i was thinking about men in black when i wrote that big ol' entry, but i didn't post it. thought it was too out there. [img]wink.gif[/img]

For THIS board?

Interesting Jely. I saw that a bit differently, but you may be right.

I just got back from seeing the movie again in IMAX. I thought that the architect was expecting Neo to do exactly what he did: Save Trinity. I thought that was how Zion was going to be destryed and hence, starting the cycle again. I also have the theory that the whole place is the Matrix. (Maybe somebody already said that. I've been out of town all week and haven't read through all the posts.)

I think the "real world" is just another facet of the matrix, but Neo is starting to break through the programming in the end of this movie when he can "sense" the machines coming for them, which he's not suposed to be able to do unless he's in the matrix.

By Vanessa Sibbald
Zap2It.com

Sitting across from Keanu Reeves during interviews for "The Matrix Reloaded," it is quite clear that he is no longer the same boy from "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" -- even if he does use the word "stoked" occasionally.

Dressed casually in a black t-shirt with a suit jacket, Keanu comes across like an actor who takes his work very seriously -- not to the point of being obnoxious, but definitely more seriously than the Keanu from "Bill and Ted," shot nearly 15 years ago.

"Adolescence... I mean characters like Rimbaud got a handle on it I guess pretty early on, but -- in my quiet way I was working something out," Reeves smiles at the changes he's undergone since he first started acting in the early '80s.

At the moment, Reeves is focused on his current project, the first of two sequels to his 1999 film "The Matrix." It's clear the film brings out the boy in Reeves; his energy for the work is contagious. But the actor comes across as a very expressive person in general, often using his hands while talking and often quoting lines from the films (and sometimes with a French accent).

"I'm very excited. I can't wait to see it," he says about the premiere of "Reloaded."

Later in the interview, he enthuses about a key scene in the film; "Don't you think it was neat, the Architect scene? Isn't that? I don't want to give away plot, but the aspect of what Neo finds out about being the one. I love that."

"Reloaded" may just be the most highly-anticipated film of 2003, thanks to the success of the first film. While fan expectations are high, Reeves says there were only two people he was trying hardest to please in the making of the film.

"I'm just trying to live up to what the brothers, Larry and Andy Wachowski, the directors and writers, want. I'm trying to realize their dream. That's the pressure I felt. To be able to do what they wanted me to do," he says.

"Reloaded" continues Neo's story, after his discovery in "The Matrix," that what he thought was the real world was instead a computer program called The Matrix. After meeting Morpheus (Laurence Fishburne), he is awoken to the real world and there finds out that he is "the one" - the one person with the ability to change the codes in The Matrix with his own will.

"It's the development of the birth of a messiah and the identity of a man," explains Reeves. "I think Neo in the beginning of 'Reloaded' is full of a lot of fear about what he has to do and the responsibilities that the community is asking of him."

While many have tagged Neo as a reluctant hero, Reeves doesn't see the character that way.

"I don't think the character is such a reluctant hero. I think he's accepted it, but I don't think he's accepted it without question," he says. "Neo is trying to find out 'what is my life' and he's not just taking it... he says, 'what if I fail?'"

Part of the success behind "The Matrix" was its innovative action scenes. For "Reloaded," the directors upped the ante, not only increasing the number of action scenes, but also their length and bravado.

"I've got five fights in the second one and I have more moves in the fight with the Smiths than I did in the whole first movie. Probably twice over," he laughs, admitting that much of his time off between shots was spent learning moves for another fight scene.

Another reason behind the success of "The Matrix" is that the film doesn't try to be a simple action or science fiction fantasy. Instead, the Wachowski brothers filled the story with religious and philosophy context, ranging from Catholicism to Taoism, and the writing of Nietzsche, just to name a few. While the famously private Reeves is reluctant to reveal his own beliefs, he does admit that they are similar to many brought up in the film.

"I don't have my list in front of me, and I should probably make a list but then I'd be doing what the brothers what the brothers don't want to be doing -- 'Here's my literal thing,'" he says. "Yes. My answer is yes ... but they don't propose a finality to it; they don't say, 'Here's the answer.' Except for, and this will be revealed more in 'Revolutions,' they do come to something and I think -- it sounds really goofy, but it's about love."

But it says it's the questions that the film brings up that make it so appealing to audiences.

"That's one of the great things about film, it's a public medium. It's a great thing of sharing and sharing ideas and points of view -- I love that about the film," he says.

Next after the "Matrix" sequels, Reeves is set to star in the film "Constantine," based on the comic book series "Hellblazer."

that's cool ski - thanks [img]smile.gif[/img]

gem - yeah, that's the thing. i'm almost inclined to think that the architect didn't expect him to take the direction he did ... however, there is still a part of me that thinks he may have expected it, as you said. i was just giving one side earlier. [img]wink.gif[/img]

more to the point, we could both be right - maybe there really was no choice at all. maybe it was, as they said earlier, an illusion of choice. zion was going to go down either way. the architect knew neo enough to know he'd go after trinity first (which still kinda annoys me - hello, greater good here!!), but who's to say he really would have handed over the code or whatever it was? maybe he would have, but it wouldn't've changed anything, and they'd still be in the same place. illusion of choice. does that make sense?